Both Parents Died of Alzheimer's. Now this Physician is Fighting Back. | Phoenix Member Stories

[0:01]Both my parents passed [music] away of Alzheimer's. My mom about four years ago and my dad just over a year. And after he passed, I kind of got myself [music] in a position that I wanted to get on being proactive. And then so I looked for a genetic [music] test to find out about the APOE4 thing.

[0:21]Both my parents had [music] Alzheimer's and they were both lucky enough not to have other health problems. So they strictly died of Alzheimer's. I assumed I had it. I wanted to know how I could grade my risk. Like how what are the odds or whatever. As you mentioned, a lot of Phoenix members shared, which is learning that we each carry before.

[0:39][music] And I know it's the case for me become the best thing that happened in our lives because it was the catalyst of change. >> Yeah. Right. >> act. And then [music] the feeling better doing it is what made it go snowball. For everything I followed her advice on, I just got more and more energy, better and better sleep. She says no alcohol, if any, minimal. So I started did that [music] right away, you know, which was a big change. If I expected to get Alzheimer's at 70, I'm living 13 years >> [music] >> healthy and energetic instead of not.

[1:10]You know, like it's the quality of these last [music] 13 years of mental sharpness. I'd rather be broke without Alzheimer's than [music] rich with it. Yeah.

[1:27]All right, cool. So we have today John Yoder, who is a Phoenix member and an APOE4 carrier. And John has been, I believe, one of the good success story of Phoenix. I wanted to interview you because you have shown a lot of resilience and you have such a good spirit on taking it all in that I actually love. So I I want to hear from you. And let's start by talking a little bit more about yourself. Like you can introduce yourself. I know you're Are you from Kansas City. Yes, Kansas City Missouri and I had both my parents pass away of Alzheimer's. My mom about 4 years ago and my dad just over a year.

[2:06]And so I kind of retired early to take care of my dad with my brother. And so I'm now like full-time trying to keep myself healthy because I kind of missed that with my mom. Neither of my parents really admitted anything was wrong with them. I think they both went all the way to the nursing home and passed away without ever accepting or admitting they accepted having Alzheimer's. And so my dad cared for my mom and the stress he went through during that probably pushed him along a little bit. They were both about 84 or so when they passed so they had good long lives but towards the end in their 70s they you know, my mom just got forgetful and

[2:49]got lost and she couldn't drive anymore and my dad started taking care of her and then things went down pretty quickly and for some reason nobody really asked about maybe she's got more than just old age. Mhm. And so when my dad became unable to care for her she went in a nursing home and and I I really wanted to take more time with my dad that I didn't get to take with my mom. So I was going to retire at 50 seven and I retired at 55 instead. So I I got I was already kind of an early retiring planning person.

[3:25]But I did 2 years earlier so I could spend time with my dad. And after he passed I kind of got myself in a position that I wanted to get on being proactive. And so I looked for a genetic test to find out about the APOE4 thing. It took about 6 months. My doctor tried referring me to two different places. I called they're like, "No, we don't do that anymore." And I got the feeling no one who offers that test wants to take the time to counsel people afterwards.

[3:54]>> Yeah. And so, yeah, they can do the test, but they don't want to deal with me and explaining what's up and answer questions after. And so, we I kind of gave up about 6 months after my dad passed last year in July or Wellway gym where I go and that's the place I spend a lot of time now has a steam room and a sign on the desk, we do full genetic testing at a discount and offer counseling after and I said, "Sure." And I went and investigated and and sure enough their test includes the APOE4.

[4:24]Okay. And so, I got a whole genetic panel and met with a counselor last summer and um really put everything health wise into kind of high gear just prior to joining Phoenix. So, by the time I joined Phoenix, I already had a CGM and an Oura ring and the Apple Watch. I didn't use as much until lately. I'm using it to track my sleep. Yeah, Phoenix is was incredible for me to be able to find people in a similar situation.

[4:53]Like-minded people. Sorry, long-winded. No, not at all. Thank you for sharing all that and I'm really sorry to hear about both your parents, especially since your dad is like so recent, right? Mhm. It's how is because I know a lot of members are also like caregivers and they're also navigating this type of situation. If you don't mind sharing a little bit more, what are the things that you felt like you did well or maybe other things that you felt like you could have done better?

[5:22]Any tips that you have for caregivers um especially these moments? Hm. That's a great question. I really cherish the time with my dad, but I was lucky enough to have I was over busy. Like I told you, I kind of had planned to retire at 55 57. So, I've been working six or seven days a week for 20 years planning for that. And so, I got to release all of my work and just focus on hanging out with my dad. So, we took walks in the park and I hung out with him in the house and my brother moved in with him so he didn't have to go to a nursing facility. So, my brother relocated and

[6:01]lived there and I was like the backup when he wanted a day off or vacation, I would travel to Memphis from Kansas City about a 9-hour drive and spend some time, you know, days with him. Uh once a month for a week, maybe I was living with him and then visiting a little more than that sometimes for the last year. I don't really so much regret what happened with my mom cuz nobody really knew any better and my dad was very he was her caregiver also struggling with beginnings of Alzheimer's at the time and so he was sort of stubborn and controlling about my mom's situation and so he wouldn't have wanted our like input or meddling or maybe to displace

[6:44]him and say "We need to do this this way or that way." And so, they kind of just did their thing and I'm at peace with that. But, uh and and that became difficult because when my mom went in a nursing home, he was her person to decide her fate. And the hospital's talking to me and my brother about "We're not sure he's okay." cuz he was slow and repeating himself a lot and when you were talking to him he would stop and pull out a little notebook and start writing little things down and there was all these signs, but he had and my brother in my mind always kind of been that way and so we're like, "Yeah, he's just kind

[7:20]of odd, you know?" But, um it went much better with my dad. I I guess advice is just follow your heart and do what you feel is right, you know, cuz everyone's different. The way I handled my dad was quite a bit different than the way my brother did because he lived with him.

[7:37]He took on like a parenting boss of my dad role. So, he was the one to fuss at him and get off of the ladder. You can't drive. My brother was the actual person who took his car keys away after he went out and got lost once. You know, his story was that daylight savings time had messed him up, and so he got himself out after dark by accident, and it wasn't anything to do with he can't drive safely. But we all knew better cuz there was little dings and damages on the car that he couldn't explain. But one day he went out to, I guess get gas is what he said, and got confused at the gas

[8:12]station, ended up with gasoline on his clothing, and an Uber driver, a stranger, asked him, "Can I help?" or whatever. Ended up getting his wallet, looking at his ID, and saying, "Just follow me back to your house." And so, the Uber driver escorted him home, and that was the end of his driving. You know, and that was tough for him and really tough for my brother because a kid never wants to play the boss of their parent. Yeah. You know, and he was that taking his driver's license was kind of probably the biggest deal with him during his decline because it signaled he's not independent anymore. You know, it's so But we I I loved the way both my

[8:55]parents, you know, kind of followed their own spirit and their own independence all the way to the end. You know, we did everything we could to honor their wishes, you know. And their wishes, for the most part, were to be left alone. They they wanted to do their thing, and you know, my dad wouldn't have had anybody move in with him even except that it got to the point, maybe 1 year before my brother moved in, where I called him one day and he wouldn't answer the telephone, and so I called him the next day, still no answer, and we called the local police to do a wellness check, and they found him sitting in the backyard talking to the

[9:32]birds, watering He has a bird feeder that he was really into, and so he would just hang out with the birds, and they found his phone, and he had this like turned off the ringer or somehow disabled it, and so the police called me back after he was out of contact for about 2 and 1/2 days, and and said, "We've got your dad on the phone, and it's all good." And the the next day two two days later or something, couldn't really say what happened. He said some people stopped by the other day. They were very nice. And I was like, "Who?"

[10:02]And he says, So, like when they would check on him, didn't remember it was the police or really know what happened. That's when my brother and I decided he's got to either move into a place with caregivers, cuz he was like all by himself, no relatives nearby or anything.

[10:17]Uh and or we didn't think of one of us moving in until he was threatened with going to a place, and he was like, "Can I just live with one of my sons?" And my brother said, "Yep." Yeah. It's great that your mother your brother moved there, and I think you should >> got disabled to do that. He worked from a home uh and transferred, and it was pretty smooth. I mean, obviously uprooted his life, but that's how it went.

[10:45]I I think your your your lesson there and what you mentioned about cherishing the time you had with your dad that you managed to spend with it it's actually very relevant for a lot of us who are not living in the same city or the same country as our parents. I'll give you my example, right? My my dad is 70 now, and if you're looking at average lifespan, let's say 80 82, and if I go back to France, Paris once a year, it's I calculated a few years back that if I go back once a year and he has only 12 more years technically on average, I'll see him only 12 more times, uh which is really not a lot when you

[11:24]really think about that. Right. And having that been cognizant about it, whether we decide to go back or actually spend more time and so on, we can actually act on it. I think the worst thing would be to get surprised by it, and to realize that we're at the very end of you know, the amount of time we spend with someone, and we're actually at the very end without knowing it.

[11:44]Uh that that would be like the the worst part, so I'd say for for all the people who uh not living in the same country or city, if it's the US, I think maybe as a parent, I think that considering that, looking at that, and it's a perspective that is that matters. Yeah, thanks for you all for sharing that. If we move on to you yourself, then, you didn't know the APOE status of your parents, you decided to get tested yourself afterwards. When you realized that you carried the gene, what was the first few things that you did from the lens of potentially giving an advice to people who just discovered their status?

[12:20]I worked as a physician before I retired, and so that, combined with just my, I guess, realistic perspective on life was that when both my parents had Alzheimer's, and they were both lucky enough not to have other health problems, so they strictly died of Alzheimer's. I assumed I had it. I wanted to know how I could grade my risk, like, how what are the odds, or whatever. But when I went to get the genetic test, I figured I would either have two fours or a four and a three, because how would I lose both parents and then just win the lottery of having like two twos or some such thing, you know? And so I really didn't expect

[13:01]anything except either of those results. I went into it feeling like I was already inherited it, because I mean, when you see your parents pass of something, both of them, you you don't need a genetic test to >> Yeah. know that that's in your cards, you know, because it was nothing specific they did, and you know, other than anyway. So I went in to find out mostly the reason I wanted to get tested was I wanted to be eligible for treatment trials. I wanted to be able to tell my doctor I have this gene, what can we do?

[13:37]As opposed to just knowing my parents passed and knowing I'm likely to. I wanted to know my status, so it was official and documented so that I could get in touch with pharmaceutical companies or maybe later on, maybe in 10 years, I would know where I stand to make myself eligible for future treatments. And also I figured knowing that would help me better guide being proactive. And so I I was happy with the 3/4 result because the alternative was 4/4.

[14:05]Really in my mind that's just how it was, you know, I would have been shocked if anything other than one of those two happened. Yeah. Makes sense. My brother hasn't been tested. He figures he's really busy with work and we talk about it a lot. He feels like he's got too much in his life to deal with Okay.

[14:24]>> able to get like I devoted my whole self to becoming healthier and preventing Alzheimer's. He has a job and he's really busy and he's like so if I knew, I don't know that I have the time to do all the stuff you're doing, you know, and some of that's just he doesn't want to know, but he his rationale for that is that he doesn't have the free time or energy or desire to take on wellness as a full-time thing like I have. And so he's just doing him, you know, without the best result.

[14:55]Because he he is true concentrate on work and kind of continue living his life like normal where I've switched it up. I really before my parents got bad sick and especially after just let myself go, you know, and so the health kick I'm on is new to me and really a blessing because particularly alcohol, it's interesting I've never known that other people didn't struggle with alcohol. That's one of the things I learned being a Phoenix member because when I did the test, I'm like, this is my status. I kind of thought it just meant Alzheimer's. Well, you know, and I know, and everyone in Phoenix knows, it means a whole lot of things. Like hyperreactive distress and sleep

[15:36]problems and just the whole list. And so, I've always known I didn't do well with alcohol. Like just a little bit and I'd have a hangover. More than a little bit and I'd be out the next day or two, you know? And so, I would go along. Yeah, yeah. So, cuz we're kind of family in that we have the same genes. And so, I think of the Phoenix as genetic family or kind of blood relatives a bit. Yeah, I love that. Because we share genes, you know? And so, finding out that it's me and my body not agreeing with alcohol really freaked me up to just say no, you know? Because I felt like I just need to

[16:15]get, you know, go along and suffer the consequences. Occasionally, I would talk to a friend like, "Oh, we were out and had the same amount last night. How are you back at work already?" And they're like, "I don't really get hangovers." I'm like, "What? Is that a thing?"

[16:29]>> [laughter] >> You know, cuz cuz I always do. And it it it's about 10 years ago I was training for a half marathon because my brother and sister-in-law got me into that and I got a Garmin watch. And so, in my training, it tells you your readiness.

[16:45]Are you ready to train or not? This years ago, I got the little chest strap and everything and didn't even know what an HRV was. I was just putting on the gear, going out and doing my thing. And I told them, "So, yeah, I can do this 6-month training, but it turns out I can't drink when I'm training for a marathon." Because every day if I had a beer or two, the next day I get up to go do my run or walk or whatever I'm doing to train and it says no readiness. Yeah.

[17:12]Because it it it is related to your flakes directly. Yeah, and so, I didn't know any of that back then, but looking back, I'm like, yeah, that's kind of a unique thing to me and my genes. And so, just all that awareness of what makes you tick and what makes you work well individually is super helpful for me because by addressing those things, you can feel better.

[17:34]Oh, cool. A lot of things to unpack here. I tried to take a little bit Yeah, I know. >> [laughter] >> It's uh it's great. Like I think what I want to focus on is what you mentioned like before and the after knowing that you carry one of the APOE4, right? You you mentioned that you let yourself go.

[17:53]And and then you decided to like go extreme on health and do that your full-time job, what you mentioned. Explain a little bit like this entire process because I I think that's something that, as you mentioned, a lot of Phoenix members share, which is learning that we carry APOE4, and I know it's the case for me, become the best thing that happened in our lives because it was the catalyst for change. It made us react. And same thing as you, I was also drinking a lot.

[18:20]Like same thing as you, several days hangover. I used to go out on Friday evening and be hangover even on Monday morning going back to work. So, I definitely feel that, and same thing as you, I also stopped alcohol. Um and had a lot of different changes like lifestyle-wise, diet, exercise, and so on. But I I want to hear from you like the feeling. Was it instant? Did you realize that it was a kick there? Did it took take a bit of time to get there?

[18:46]Did you start everything at one go? How how did you decide to do all of that? It was the actually genetic counseling, which is interesting because I was trying to get the genetic test and didn't concern myself with the counseling. It just happened to come with it at our gym. And I could have gone online to the same company and got it, but because our gym offered that, I thought I should support them. And I I it was an extra $50 or something to do it through the gym instead of just taking who they were going to use and doing it on my own. 3x4 I think is the name of the company I used. And so,

[19:20]going in to get my result in July 1st last year, they gave me this printout with all this information about these are your genes and these are things you need to do and they recommended supplements. She said I need to do intermittent fasting and I said, well, I already do that and I love it. It's my favorite way of managing my calories. I had been a yo-yo dieter up until last summer. So, I would gain a bunch of weight and then lose a bunch of weight and then gain a bunch of weight and it's been that way since I was 20, but my losing weight and when I was on the right path, I would always

[19:57]um do intermittent fasting cuz it worked the best and I I just knew I felt great to like go to the gym, run around, do my thing on an empty stomach. Like in the morning, the first half of the day till 1:00 or 2:00 p.m., I felt like I was really just operating well with intermittent fasting and she tells me you need to do that and I'm like, cool, I can do that. And she said take a bunch of supplements and she recommended a couple. One was called Inflamazone which has turmeric and some other things to make it work a little better. And she said I needed to take CD choline or choline is what she said. I learned from

[20:31]Phoenix CD choline is a better option and eggs, nuts, magnesium thing She went through these things and so I took that and I embraced it before I found Phoenix actually cuz this is the day I learned of my APOE4. And so, I ordered the vitamins and started exercising more right away. Like the day she gave me this report, I was basically following her instructions as if I had gone to the doctor and this is a prescription. And then the feeling better doing it is what made it go snowball. For everything I followed her advice on, I just got more more energy, better and better sleep.

[21:10]She says no alcohol, if any, minimal. So, I started that right away, you know, which was a big change cuz I probably had a bit of alcohol 5 days a week for forever, you know, just a beer or two or whatever, you know, I I wasn't ever a heavy drinker, but I was a very frequent drinker of one glass of wine. I bought into the thing 20 years ago when they said wine is good for you. It was a bit of an excuse. I think I may have been trying to manage my insomnia with Alcohol, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which now that I wear the ring and I'm tracking it, it makes it so much worse.

[21:46]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the medicine is messing you up. Yeah, the sleep addiction is not good. So, once I got the genetic report, that's kind of the thing that sparked all these changes, you know, I I learned from the CGM that the way I've been doing intermittent fasting was terrible because I was eating mostly carbs during my meal and if you wear a CGM, you know, that spikes your blood sugar like crazy. So, if you don't eat for 16 hours and then you go to um you know, a pancake breakfast >> Mhm. you're going to have your blood over 200, you know, just right away. And I say you, I mean, that's probably an us

[22:25]thing and an APOE3/4 thing, maybe more than just everybody else, but with my CGM, I know I needed way more protein. The genetic counselor said get protein powder. I'm like, I've never done that. She says, well, you need to. It's crazy not to, you know, and so I started eating fish and salmon and I have protein powder most days of the week and so, yeah, a lot of things fell into place. But the spark was the genetic counseling after I got the result.

[22:52]>> Yeah. And I like the fact that you emphasized that you had this uh feedback loop, very positive feedback loop, where as soon as you started, I guess a few weeks after you started feeling more energetic, better sleep, and so on. Because I know a lot of people are thinking, "All right, I'm doing that for especially the younger crowd. I'm thinking, all right, I'm doing that for my brain health, my longevity in 20, 30 years down the road. Is it really worth it?" But actually, whatever we're doing for longevity and reduction of Alzheimer's risk, we also benefiting on a day-to-day basis. Same thing as you, I feel like I'm sharper, more energetic, very like much of the short term. I I

[23:30]believe that if someone goes into something relatively intense, like you're changing diet, exercising, stopping alcohol, they will feel the effect within like 1 month, like very very straight away. Not only in terms of how they feel, but also how they look. I'm sure you also lost lost a lot of weight You you look in the mirror, which I don't look in the mirror a ton, but when I catch myself in the mirror, I'm like, "Who is this guy?" You know, especially with the weightlifting, because I like I told you, I've done the yo-yo dieting forever. That never included strength training really to any significant degree. Um and I got a tonal mirror, so I can do it

[24:05]safely for an old person, cuz when you get older and you're lifting weights, if you go a little too far or get carried away, you injure yourself, and then you're out for a while, and it's very frustrating. And so, yeah, I my attitude about those big changes in how I feel is that if none of this affects me getting Alzheimer's and I have dementia in 15 years, which would be a bit earlier than my parents, but I would still say it's it's 70. If I expected to get Alzheimer's at 70, I'm living 13 years healthy and energetic instead of not.

[24:38]You know, like it's the quality of these last 13 years of mental sharpness for getting in reducing your risk. You know, like I'm just having a better life on this. So, like if they came up with a cure tomorrow and I could end the gene, let's say we replace it and I'm now two threes or two twos, or better, I would do everything I'm doing except for the supplements. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. I mean, you dropped my stack. But, I love the working out. I love the eating healthy. One reason I'm not as big a fan of the supplements is that my favorite foods are all the very, very healthy ones anyway. So, all the broccoli and

[25:15]the fruits and blueberries and I do all of that anyway. And so, I take the supplements because if one of those, say lithium or some other random supplement, gives me 2 years extra, I'm going to take them all in case. You know, cuz it's just one little handful of pills once a day. I would not do anything that makes me feel worse. If I get to a supplement or an intervention that I feel like I'm having less energy or less vitality, I would stop that, you know, because all of the things I've done, including this sauna, I didn't realize it till ours at this gym. It broke a week ago. I was doing 5 days a week.

[25:53]I've been going there for years. Use the sauna maybe once a month just because it's there, but through Phoenix, I learned that that's one of those important things you can do to help with heat shock proteins. And so, I do that for five or six days every week for a month now, maybe two. And when it broke, I'm like, "Wow, I miss that." I want to go to the gym less. I don't have It's weird cuz I can't really put my finger on why except that I'm upset it's gone and want it back. Mhm. And that's interesting, right? That's how you thought of the steam room.

[26:25]>> You know, I just feel like I need that little piece of my routine. And so, if I can drop an intervention and miss it, I'm going to add it back. If I drop it and feel better, I'm leaving it. >> That's an interesting and it's also my approach on, you know, the what I call like the no regret moves, right? Like, it's really the the ratio between the benefits and the risk, um the benefits and the risk. And if there are like heavy risk and if you feel like a downside and and symptoms due to any drugs that you're taking, then it might be really worth researching super deeply before making a decision. But a lot of what we're doing

[26:58]don't come with whatever side effects or risk that worse. Mhm. You're just peeing it out and that's it. It's wasted. But I guess you have benefits that are lost. Yeah, exactly. And the cost for me is like I'd rather be broke without Alzheimer's than rich with it. Yeah.

[27:15]Yeah. Total harm. You know. >> Yeah. But there's also the fact that all of the money I spent going out at night and drinking now goes to help. Yeah, same thing. Yeah, yeah, lots of savings there. You know. >> Even like you know, less eating out and everything because it's less healthy and and so on. Like there's a lot of savings there.

[27:36]>> at night after bedtime because my silly bedtime is like 9:45 now. Yeah. So I uh everything I did after that I'm saving that money. Um there I'm on the medicine thing, I'm kind of on the fence with rapamycin for the reasons you mentioned. I I love my life and vitality and how I feel. I got my PET tau test last Friday. I went through Care Access, which I would have never heard of PET tau or Care Access without Phoenix. So even though my genetic people offered me things, this group has offered me knowledge of stuff I would have never been aware of.

[28:12]Because I wouldn't have known what PET tau was and I tried getting a test here locally around Kansas City and couldn't anyway. So Care Access had one in St. Louis, which is about a 3-hour drive. So we made the road trip and I did that 2 weeks ago and it was 0.09. And so I was delighted because that's half of what they said the borderline is like 0.18.

[28:32]I'm like, "Wow, I could double and I'd still be normal." Congratulations. >> I feel like I'm able to get ahead of it that way. You know, the reason I did the test and the reason Care Access offers it is for trials and treatments. And so had it been point 25, I think I would probably be just as enthused about getting on top of keeping it there as I am with point 09. What point 09 makes me happy because I took Benadryl every night for insomnia for at least 20 years. I was taking 50 mg of diphenhydramine just as like my nightly routine because I had trouble falling asleep cuz I've always had insomnia. And then to learn that's harmful, you know,

[29:14]and that it messes up your deep sleep and so I stopped all of that the minute I learned it last year. I was worried had I damaged my brain with diphenhydramine for 20 years twice a night, you know, and apparently not. And so that's good news. Yeah, it is. Yeah, congratulations on that score. It's like amazing.

[29:31]>> Thank you. Yeah. It was It was a little bravery in taking that test, but I just in the end I'd rather know than not know, you know. Yeah. I and that that makes me think about something else I wanted to talk about that you mentioned I think like 20 minutes ago now on your brother feeling that even if he did the APOE4 test, he wouldn't have the mental space to act on it, right? And I believe it's the same for all those like people that I mean a test. If someone here who is listening wants to do the test and feels like they wouldn't even change anything no matter the result, like don't don't do it

[30:08]because there is no civil effect Yeah, I don't have time for more stuff. Yeah, yeah, there's no point in doing those tests because the no civil effect of that something is wrong and your body acting like if it's it's wrong is a real thing. So, you only do those tests if you believe that if the result is negative, you will be able to act on it.

[30:26]Otherwise, don't do that. >> do that in my mind before I took it. I'm like, so how am I going to react if it's bad? And how am I going to react if it's good? And I wasn't really gambling on it being good. I wanted to know either way.

[30:37]Mhm. You know, and on the bad mostly I wanted to know because I'm anxious to get into a treatment trials for people at the time I was thinking having a high p-tau meant you have preclinical Alzheimer's, like a diagnosis. But then there's a lot of talk about that's not really a good way to do it and there's too many people with higher tau's and so you can't really call it that. But I was thinking if I have preclinical Alzheimer's, then I have like a disease process that I could go find treatments for with uh treatment trials, you know? And but I I don't I was prepared for either and knew that I would react in a way that I feel

[31:19]was a positive either way. That's uh I I love your spirit uh and it's like amazing. >> Yeah, I know it's a bit unusual. I I'm not like my brother's the opposite of this, you know? And it's like a lot of people don't you just have so much bandwidth for this news. Yeah.

[31:34]That's cool. >> And never would I recommend going to take that test if you're thinking, "I'm going to take it because I hope it's good." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's >> You need to have a plan if it's bad. You want to take it so that you can find out if it's bad. Yeah, I agree. Totally agree there. A few comments on that because I know you retired early, you mentioned yourself that you're focusing your entire life now on on this and it's a priority number one. What would you say to people who might still need to work, don't have the time, maybe they have an entire family to take care of and so on. So, people who might not be

[32:10]able to dedicate as much mental space or time to prevent Alzheimer's or at least decrease their risk? Like the advice I would give my brother. And yeah, 100% because he works still and everything you do that might help you get less chance of Alzheimer's, you should do. And so if that's 30 minutes a day and that's all you've got, it's 30 minutes more than you would if you didn't do that. So, if you took your old life, like mine, and you did nothing except stop drinking, you're way ahead already.

[32:44]You know, or if you take one supplement, say a random one, let's say lithium, because that's one of the ones that doesn't make you feel different, and you're like, "Should I really be doing this?" You know, if because there's no harm, why would you not take an inexpensive lithium tablet per day? And so, just one intervention or two interventions, with the one or two you're doing, might be the difference like a year earlier of getting dementia. You don't know, but if you can delay that, it feels good to be doing something positive for yourself.

[33:16]And the reality is lots of these little interventions, of which I do hundreds, don't take any time at all, like taking a lithium tablet, or dropping alcohol, or trying to have a consistent bedtime. That's something everyone kind of should do, but I think people with our genes more so. You know, you How much? Well, I guess if you're working really hard, a consistent bedtime could be tough, but you can do the best you can. You know, at least acknowledging that that's a priority or a goal, you know. So, yeah, I Every little bit helps, and you never know what little bit is going to be the difference maker.

[33:51]Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with you on on that point, right? It's For people who don't necessarily have a lot of time or a lot of budget to buy a lot of supplements, as you mentioned, tons of supplements are very cheap, like lithium, especially because it's microdosing. Um yeah.

[34:05]cheap, no regrets. That move because you don't have side effects. But as as John you mentioned earlier, even walking your 10,000 steps daily, or even if you can't do 10,000, let's say 5,000, you will actually feel better. And if you're working hard, or if you um I know, doing tons of conference calls and so on, you will actually realize that after doing those steps, you are actually higher in terms of performance, your brain is clearer. So, you're probably getting back that 30 minutes, more or less, in efficiency anyway in your day. So, it's not really a trade-off of losing 1 hour because if you're more efficient in the remaining hours, it's still good, but so

[34:41]yeah, I'd say doing anything helps and also it's not because you see people going hardcore on it and spending the entire a lot of time I spend a lot of time on that as well, but at one point in time for us it's also diminishing return. Anything that you stack on top is really diminishing return whereas if you're as you mentioned if you're just doing the main big levers, which is trying to reduce your stress, limit alcohol, cigarettes, trying to control your metabolism to not have diabetes and so on, having good sleep and so on like all these big levers they impact probably like 50 80 20% rule, right? You probably like already have 80% of the result by

[35:19]doing that. Oh, so definitely it's not because >> of those that mindfulness has start to have a big uh red studies saying mindfulness is one of the keys to not having dementia. People have more time spent in mindfulness tend to get it less. Which living with both my parents, you could describe their state at the end as mindlessness. And so it's one of those causation correlation things where I'm thinking so mindfulness is good for not getting Alzheimer's. Maybe people who are mindful just don't have it.

[35:48]>> Yeah. You know, it's not Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so I I don't trust any of the things that cuz all of the stuff we have has evidence of correlation but not causation. So, you just have to hope one or two of them is causation. But like if a person's overworked and overtired like my brother, I've talked him into doing meditation because it makes you more effective at your work and more focused and you improve your performance. And he's liking doing meditation Mhm. for just his life outside of the fact that it's a good thing to do. He also likes the fact that it feels like he's making a small step towards helping himself

[36:26]stay healthy. He joined a gym as well. He was never a member of a gym, but he's doing that because of my influence, more or less. You know, I'm saying, "You should try this. It's awesome." And I think it feels good also to spread that, right? I I've done that with a few of my friends as well, make them like healthier just by, you know, inspiring them as well. And that that feels good when you see like everyone around you like on that journey. Everyone at their own speed and pace. I Um I I want to focus a little bit on the Neuronic uh experience because that's one of the study that we did inside the

[36:58]Phoenix community. I know that you actually loved using the device. Tell us a little bit more about your decision process first. What made you decide to uh do the study? So, just for the the audience, uh red light therapy device or photobiomodulation, which is a helmet that you put on your head and uh you do like a 20-minute program every day, longer or shorter depending on you. And um it has a lot of uh different benefits cognitively, but also in in terms of uh energy and in terms of um better sleep, better HRV, depending on which mode you use. And we have run that study within the Phoenix community, and I think like 50-plus members have have tried it, and

[37:37]John, you're one of of them. And I I'd love to know your decision process. Why did you decide to join the study? And how did you feel about it? I would say the reason I joined Phoenix is for that opportunity. So, I joined Phoenix maybe 3 weeks prior to that being available.

[37:54]And it was in my understanding, I found it through Reddit and researching, "What can I do other than just the things that the counselor told me genetically?" So, I joined Phoenix to make myself aware of things like Neuronic when they become available because I figured that's the place where I would find out about photobiomodulation because I wasn't aware of it. And so, I uh probably 3 weeks after joining Phoenix, I got an invite, "Hey, we're doing this photobiomodulation.

[38:23]Are you interested? And I'm like, "Absolutely." You know, because this is why I'm here. I'm here for it, like literally. And so, I did that with I would say each of the things that's been offered, I sign up yes, I want this. Except for strictly measuring progress. I don't really have the time, interest, or energy, I think, for that. So, something that just gives me measurements, I'm leaving that to the side. I'm doing things that might actually actively help, you know? Okay.

[38:54]The photobiomodulation. And for that specifically, I I signed up because that's why I joined Phoenix and what I wanted is something I could do to potentially help me to be lower risk of having dementia. And then, in reading and studying about it and doing it, I became a fan of it because, like all the other things, I feel better. I feel more steady in the morning with it. On the days that I do it late, I regret. So, I kind of get up and work it into my day in the morning. And now, I've been doing that every every morning since I got my helmet, which I was probably one of the very first ones cuz the minute she said,

[39:34]"These are available." I said, "Yes, please, and send me one." And I started using it probably before the study officially kicked off. So, I was just again one of the first, and I am all in on it. Don't know that I would still be using it every single day if I didn't feel like I can tell it helps me feel more focused and energetic and ready for the day, I guess, is the way you could put it, you know, like to engage with people and problems and do just, you know, more alert and less, maybe, hyperreactive distresses and things like that. Or my emotional state is like more steady, I'd say, using that every day.

[40:14]And then, because of that, I'm still doing it and plan to like if I lost it or it broke, I'd just order another one and keep it up. And this is a great feedback from you and you get Yeah, I just recently started using it at bedtime, also. So, I do that's a new thing on talking to them after of how big a fan I was of it in the morning. Uh and they're like, "Have you tried it for insomnia?" I'm like, "No, but I I do have that." And so, I've I've been doing the uh the evening setting before bed just the last few days, and it I think it might be helping, and I may be a

[40:46]twice a day Nurosym person. Wow. Okay. I Yeah, I'm doing a small parenthesis here because I Now that I think this, I I want to add that into our daily check-ins where you're able to say if you use it because I I know Now, I think you don't have the option anymore, but I'll put it back so you can always record which mode you use, and then we can correlate with your sleep score because that's the entire goal of Phoenix, right? The app as well to be able to for you to log in what you are doing, and then have the app realize, "Oh, wow, your sleep score is 20% better. This is what changed for the

[41:21]past 1 week, for the past month, for the past day." And be able to like surface that not only for you, but also for other community members. And if we see that a lot of members have this effect, then we can know that it's not only a unique person, but it's a an equal one, but an equal many. And I think that's like super important. So, I'm I'm just writing a note here to put it back cuz normally it's supposed to be in Yeah, something with Nurosym, it's interesting cuz the evening the way I get it talking to them a little bit is that that evening setting is almost the opposite effect of the morning one. Mhm. It's

[41:52]almost like turning you on in the morning and turning you off at night with different hertz's. And so, it's Yeah, separate. It's the same device, but it's a very separate use. Yeah. That That's very cool to know. >> to do things kind of my own way, so I did get both of the other devices, the transauricular vagus nerve stimulator for the ear and the meditation helmet, but I didn't sign up to be officially in the studies on those because on the meditation helmet, she said, "Well, you should drop the NeurOptimal for a bit to do ours." So, that's a hard pass.

[42:29]You know, because I want to do both, you know? And and for the transauricular thing, I like to use it on an as-needed basis. If I feel like I'm getting stressful or need to go to bed, I use it, but I don't do real well with do this every night at this time because what if I want to do it more?

[42:48]Yeah. >> Or what if I don't feel I need it some nights or whatever? Like I do a sound bath every week on Friday at our gym, the same place that has the sauna, and I take my transauricular deal and set it to meditation and I'm like multitasking.

[43:03]I'm in the sound bath with my ear thing in triggering my vagus nerve for meditative support, you know? And those are the types of individual uses that don't really fit into the study as much. >> sense. And it's it's a good feedback for for us as well that we want to make the study replicable with proper insights, we need to have everyone on the same settings doing exactly the same thing. But however, in a practical way, what you want to do as an individual is to maximize the effect it has on you and not really like in the end, of course, like advancing research and everything, I'm sure you care about, but in the end, you still want to have

[43:41]the maximum effect on you first and that's the priority. It's a it's a very good point and I I have to think about how we can I think with enough volume of individuals running it even with different settings, different intensity, different volume, we can probably derive insights still and that's probably the best way to go because then we don't restrict people on the mode and everything cuz yeah, for for the audience, like what John mentioned, we we're using other like we have other studies running. One is Xen well with vagus nerve stimulation and then we have what you mentioned as as a helping on meditation and and everything which is like Sensei that helps as well which is

[44:20]another helmet but yeah it has some double use with uh And it's a lot you know when I travel and I'm packing these three things it's like really you know but I love it. I I did travel recently and I took all three of those both helmets with the headphones Sensei and the Neuronic and but it's it's interesting because if I hadn't gotten the Neuronic study and told the instructions are do this every day here's the program I may not have gotten the habit developed and hooked on it in the way I am.

[44:52]And so it in the Neuronic study I'm like an example of why it's a good thing because I had to use it for that 90 days by the end of the 90 days I'm not giving it up. Yeah it's a habit yeah it became a habit. >> it into my routine. The trouble is when you start stacking the things then you've got the vagus nerve on top of that and another thing on top of that it becomes I don't it's it's a difficult thing because it's good to get everybody in a routine and doing it all at the same time because that's how you as a person can see if it's going to work for you but it may be not good to

[45:26]stop the other things that you're enjoying in order to do that. >> Yeah no it's a yeah it's a bit of a dilemma here. >> Yeah I am a Yeah I don't know if I would have been as successful with Neuronic if I weren't committed. You know when I signed up I'm like yes I'm going to do this every day I'm going to do your program and not other programs for just the 90 days and once that 90 days stopped I added some time to my morning one so instead of doing the 25 minutes we've all done for 90 days I'm doing 30 now and I do the evening one which wasn't part of the study. They said you

[45:56]know hold off doing the extra modes. You know it's got four modes we were only doing the one and so I was kind of anxiously waiting to try the other things, but I would say that it worked out for me in a way that might not have worked as well if I weren't in a strict, you know, do it every day for 90 days thing. Or five I think five days a week, but I'm I'm not really a five day a week kind of guy. I go all in, you know.

[46:19]Seven is more my ideal. >> I see that. How do you handle motivation and stay consistent when you don't see immediate results? Hm. That's tough. I would say if I'm not feeling worse doing something, Okay. I would keep doing it, you know. I've got a number of supplements that I've tried, you know, a couple of bottles of this or that. And if after the two months I don't feel any difference, I'm probably not getting another one of those except for the ones that have real um kind of proven or at least evidence-based benefits instead of I'm just going to guess.

[46:57]Yeah. How do I stay motivated? The hope that it's going to help, the thought that like lithium is an example of that because you can't tell any difference. You could take lithium I think forever and ever and you're just kind of crossing your fingers. You hope it helps. You also hope it doesn't hurt, but I on the chance that it may be helping in ways I can't tell. I guess the answer is I've got some faith in the fact that I read up on these things and other Phoenix community members read up on these things and I'm hoping that things that I can't tell any difference with are actually making some progress for me. How do you decide then if

[47:34]something or study is robust enough and the evidence is compelling enough for you to do it? I have a very low bar for that. I will do nearly anything if I think it's going to help. The way I rule things out are the things I don't I like when I first started doing interventions I would call them things other than supplements. I went with what I enjoy.

[47:55]Healthy foods, exercise, intermittent fasting. I love those things out outside of all this, you know. Steam rooms, I've always liked that. So, I would be hesitant to do things I don't enjoy. It goes back to what you said, if somebody's only got 30 minutes extra a day, what are they going to do? I would never suggest to do something they don't like to do, you know. If you like walking, walk. If you like running, run.

[48:16]But, I wouldn't take a runner and tell them walk, you know, because they're better off doing what they enjoy doing because they're probably going to stick with it anyway. And there's not enough evidence that these things are going to make some big impact for people to be doing things they don't like to do.

[48:32]Because you burn your discipline on that. So, Right. It's nothing I'm doing except taking handfuls of pills is something I don't really enjoy, you know. I I like all the things I'm doing. I enjoy the meditation sensei thing, and I guess that I forgot your question. No, it it was a how do you stay motivated on on things when you don't see immediate results, right? But, I think your your answer is very Faith Faith that it may actually help in ways that I'm not aware of, you know, you have to trust. And I read on these things enough to get a sense of what's valid maybe and not in my own opinion, you know.

[49:08]>> Because you you were a physician previously. I mean, uh I retired now, and that that gives you this uh scientific uh knowledge and the ability to decrypt clinical trials, right? So, just a quick uh parenthesis here um uh on the clinical trials and so on. And I I think that your audience needs to know uh ish uh you're reading this like just know that all clinical trials are not the same, all research papers are not the same depending on whether they're like uh written and published, if they're peer-reviewed or not. When you're looking at animal models, for example, like mice models, solving Alzheimer's in mice models, we've been able to do that for a long, long time

[49:46]for a lot of different mechanism, but it's not always applicable to humans. So, you want to look at the most robust stuff is like randomized clinical trial like double-blinded and so on with a a lot of individuals patients inside like a huge cohort and so on. And always be careful of like what you mentioned John earlier on causation and correlation because there's a lot of confounding factors like that exist out there. And being able to detect that is not that easy for someone who is not medically trained.

[50:17]It's a lot with the supplements is like you're saying, if you look at all of them and you think, well, you're supposed to take this one with this one but not that one because it affects another and this is better in the morning and this is better on a full stomach. It would be so easy to get overwhelmed just like instantly by that.

[50:33]Like, okay, I've got 10 supplements but I can't just take them at one time. Yeah. And I have to have fats so the volume vitamins are soluble and what? It's It's easy to get overwhelmed and I I try to not by just kind of taking a step back and going, you know, it's not this big of a deal. And if you're doing one or two things, it's better than zero things. And there are things I'm not into like a lot of people in Phoenix, maybe most, I'd say I get a feeling maybe half of the people care a lot about zone two versus other zones of exercise.

[51:05]>> Mhm. I don't give a hoot. I don't really because my heart rate is different than other people's. I think it normally runs really high. I'm not even confident of what my zone two is. Okay. >> it's so much important to just get out of the chair and go move around. And if you get caught up worrying about how fast you're moving around, you might be overthinking it to the point that you're like, like if I if I go to the gym and I or a Peloton, I have one of those as well. You go really hard and you're just sweaty and out of breath and you're about to die. You're maybe zone four the

[51:36]whole [snorts] time or a lot of it. I would hate to think someone is kicking themselves for going too hard except in the case of overtraining and your aura will tell you about that if you overtrain and messes up your sleep. But, you know, I I try to just do what feels right for me and not get too caught up in rules like you need this many hours of zone two or something because I think if I did that, I would probably be in the end worse off Mhm. than if I just do what works, you know, when I you know, just exercise as it feels right to me, you know. Yeah. Well, going back to the

[52:10]80/20, right? The 80% of the results is coming from exercising. You don't need to maximize the impact of doing a bit of heat, doing a bit of zone two, and your number of hours, and so on. Don't get too bogged down into the details. Like what matters is to do also like what you like you mentioned, right? What you enjoy. And that is like deeply personal.

[52:28]That's why I always believe that what whatever prevention strategy protocols you're following, one big parameter that goes inside is your own preferences. For some people, it's easy to fast or intermittent fasting. For some other people, it's easy to cut all like sort of saturated fat. For some people, it's easy to run and then etc. Like it all depends on you, and that's why your protocol should be like completely unique. I think we're very aligned on that. Uh coming to a close, is there anything that you want to mention to any athlete for carriers out there, whether they're Phoenix members or not? Any message that you want to put out there?

[53:02]Yeah, the importance of joining the Phoenix group was huge for me in ways that I didn't realize. I get information and support maybe more than you'd realize cuz I didn't come into expecting support of people in the same situation as you, you know, like I went to an actual family reunion, and they were like, "Oh my god, John, you've lost a ton of weight." They said 100 lbs. I did not lose 100 lbs. But, thank you. But, they hadn't seen me in a year, and like, "What happened?" I'm like, "Yeah, I'm just being healthy, eating right, and whatever." And because it's a family reunion, they know both my parents passed of Alzheimer's. So, my cousin

[53:37]pushes, and she says, "So, exactly what's up with this new you because you look a lot different. I said, well, the threat of Alzheimer's. Yeah. Boy, that shut that down. Nobody wants to hear that at a family reunion. Like they changed the subject and like all right. But in the Phoenix community, that's all we're about, you know, and so I have people that are not necessarily my relatives, but people that I can relate to and talk to about, yeah, I've lost a ton of weight and I'm getting muscles and why? Because I don't want Alzheimer's. Yeah. And that's something that will coach and help you about.

[54:12]>> thing to discuss in our group in that everyone else gets it. >> Yeah. Yeah, even though I've got the same genes as my relatives that are from your reunion, they're uh they're smoking and not thinking about it. And they don't want to hear about it necessarily. And so you get kind of a new family of people with your aligned interest. And so I joined it really to get access to things like the Neuronic helmet. That's why I signed up. But what I found maybe more importantly is a group that understands where I'm coming from and is in a similar situation. I love that. Thank you for for that uh feedback because that's really like one

[54:52]of the main reason why I I built it initially was for the community aspect, right? And like for example, I I live in Singapore normally, so I've been there 10 years and there's I haven't met any other APOE4 carrier. It was like super difficult to feel like lonely when you talk to doctors and physicians. They tell you to come back when you have symptoms and no one understand anything.

[55:10]So uh yeah, definitely the community aspect is super important. Well, thank you so much, John, for your time, for your insights, for Sure. your motivational speech and your energy. I really appreciate it. Any last word, anything that you want to put out there or we're good? We are good. We are good. I could go on and on about how much things have helped me, but we we are good. I I That's awesome.

[55:35]>> Cool.